67 replies to this topic

[Talon Lord Othrim]

I have never read any of Curze's stuff. However I have all the Astartes back story compendium things (Index Astartes?) so I will have to read up on them

I will save you time. Wah I have a multiple personality disorder, waahh I never had a family, waaah my daddy wants me to be the bad guy, waah I'm a shity ruler and my people are shit, waaah I'm what my daddy wanted me to be, waaah just kill me.

I.E. EMO KID, just like most of the Traitors.

Moving on.

I wish to challenge the Crimson Fists to a 5 v 5 for their disrespectfull comment. WE shall have vengance!!!

)

[Good Monsin]

I like Guiliman, Kruz, Leman Russ, Magnus
Guliman knows how to put a world in order after he ravages it, and despite the smurf jokes two storm bolters strapped to two power fists is monumentally bad ass.

Kruz reminds me of Batman just a billion times cooler and I have a soft spot for lightning claws.

Leman Russ is a bad duude, but sounds like a guy I could have a few drinks with. Brash but he and his Space Wolves are the one's you call when shit gets real.

Magnus is just such a sad story, made me hate Russ a little but that is what he is there to do.

Shit list: The emeperder, Horus, Mortarion , Angron

The emperor is the main cause of the heresy because he sows jealousy between the primarchs is hypocritical beyond belief. Go on a quest to spread truth, while I hide a way mysteriously to do secret research that will make some primarchs so curious why he left them that chaos can influence them that the emp is trying to become a god.

Horus: pre heresy I liked him, post he is an idiot.

Mortarion: I like the Death guard for their sturdiness and that they are resolute, but I don't like how Mortarion tears down his brother Magnus. Also he acts very proper and strict and then kills his own men which for all the heretical primarchs is completely disgusting and cowardly.

Angron: I like him after the heresy becasue he really finds his place under Korn's blood soaked hand. But preheresy he is so wild that he kills his own men on purpose in the surprise attack on istivan which to me is awful cause his men loves their primiarch, so it is that ultimate betrayal, but he found his place and his nitch.

Oh and to the Lion, dude get your shit together.

[Good Monsin]

As for the rest.
Lorgar: I feel like he is week cause he was able to be emotional controlled into doing something he later regretted. Seeing him get ripped up by Corax was nice though. Almost wish Kruz would have let him finish the job. But seeing Kruz intimidate Corax was also nice.

Alpharius and Omegron: I like that they went to chaos as that ultimate sacrifice of the lesser evil. Although I would like to see them in combat even thought they are the league of spies that never goes in hand to hand usually.

Fulgrim: I love his story. The demon taking over a primarch idea is pretty sweet too. He killed old Medusa though which was disappointing, I loved his hands!

Ferrus Manus: see above

Khan: Khan is weird for me. I think I like his chapter more then him personally. The white scars tearing across the fields in their bikes is awesome.

Sanguinius: He is a primarch with angel wings! Come on! that alone is awesome making. Then he is also a bad ass? I'm sold.

Perturabo: Is almost Angron like for me just cause he seems that cold unable to to talk to type. Gotta love a Primarch sized thunder hammer though.

Vulkan: His dragon based backround is pretty sweet.

Corax: I like Corax's fighting style and that he is attached to his chapter, it was unfortunate the way things went when he tried to bring the chapter back though.

[Gerhart]

The emperor is the main cause of the heresy because he sows jealousy between the primarchs is hypocritical beyond belief. Go on a quest to spread truth, while I hide a way mysteriously to do secret research that will make some primarchs so curious why he left them that chaos can influence them that the emp is trying to become a god.

I disagree completely, your telling me the most geneticly perfect human's ever can't deal with daddy not coddeling them? Its a fucking joke, almost all the traitors boiled down to meeehh my daddy wont talk to me. Come on he gave you control of the most powerful army in universe! Man up, jesus.

[Good Monsin]

He sows jealousy between the Primarchs, anointing Horus as Warmaster and giving Fulgrim who is already to proud to see straight the honor of being the only one who can wear his sigil. Then leaves the war without any word as to why. Of course they are going to be curious and it leaves them vulnerable to chaos. It's not about coddling them it's about not knowing what your fighting for when your realize your initial goal is unrealistic and then not being able to find out why. So the primarchs are lead by chaos to assume that the emp sent them on a wild goose chase while he becomes a god and will take glory for their conquest. He wounds his most trusted son by competing a secret. He should have been up front with the primarchs in his intentions. It would have saved them the curiosity and magnus from destroying the chair.

[Gerhart]

Lets break this down

He sows jealousy between the Primarchs, anointing Horus as Warmaster and giving Fulgrim who is already to proud to see straight the honor of being the only one who can wear his sigil.

Who was he supposed to put in charge? All of them, can you say cluster fuck? Horus was clearly the best choice before the fall, no one could best him in combat, or strategy, or worlds conqured, and before he fell he did a better job then Guilliman remaking worlds.

The jealous Primarchs, well that was personal. Instead of being butt hurt that someone better then them was chosen, they should have refocused and strived to be better.

As for Fulgrim, I don't recall any of the Primarchs being jealous of this.

Then leaves the war without any word as to why. Of course they are going to be curious and it leaves them vulnerable to chaos.

Most didn't know about chaos, or didn't understand it from what I have read. Should they be curious, sure who wouldn't be. Does that mean the greatest humans ever need to have WTFHISSYFITS about it? I don't believe so, simply man up like some of the Primarchs did and carry on.

It's not about coddling them it's about not knowing what your fighting for when your realize your initial goal is unrealistic and then not being able to find out why.

It is about coddling, Horus, Lorgar, Magnus, Mortarion, all wen't into panic when he said all right greatest humans every yall take over daddys got shit to do. Instead of being like do your thing we got this, they went waaaaaahh waaaaaay daaaddddyyy!!!!!

How was the goal unrealistic? Had they not fallen to petty rivalries and jealousy who would have stopped them?

So the primarchs are lead by chaos to assume that the emp sent them on a wild goose chase while he becomes a god and will take glory for their conquest.

Only the whiny emo primarchs fell for this reason.

He wounds his most trusted son by competing a secret. He should have been up front with the primarchs in his intentions. It would have saved them the curiosity and magnus from destroying the chair.

Seriously, they were made to be perfect and needed to stop acting like children.

Yes I agree he should have, but he didn't. Lets wear our big boy pants and place them blame on the ones who deserve it.

I'm enjoying this!

[Talon Lord Othrim]

FLUFF WAR LOL!!!! aim for the dust bunnies lol

[Good Monsin]

[quote='Gerhart' pid='7160' dateline='1327498661']

Quote:Who was he supposed to put in charge? All of them, can you say cluster fuck? Horus was clearly the best choice before the fall, no one could best him in combat, or strategy, or worlds conqured, and before he fell he did a better job then Guilliman remaking worlds.

I don't think Horus was the right Primarch, I don't think any of the Primarchs should have been left to control the crusade. The emperor should not have left them to deligate themselves because even though you say they are perfect, each of them is obviously flawed. Hubris and misjudgement flows from the Primarchs. They are grand don't get me wrong, but perfect is way out of bounds. Continuing on whihc Primarch would have been better suited, you give the Primarch who has the most lust for power the reigns of the crusade and leave him with doubts about your plans and you expect something to go right? And I know this next part is gonna get me in trouble but Guiliman has structure. He is weaker but the most logical and truely belives in the emperor. Chaos would'nt have been able to sway him. Horus's power lust, which the is his aspect of the emperor he is known for, is his down fall and the downfall of the Crusade.

Quote:"The jealous Primarchs, well that was personal. Instead of being butt hurt that someone better then them was chosen, they should have refocused and strived to be better.

As for Fulgrim, I don't recall any of the Primarchs being jealous of this."

You have twenty demi gods all fighting for the emperor and you say one is better then the rest, of course it is going to make them fight. Guiliman and Leman Russ especially. Leman Russ gets the shaft already being the one they always call when things need done but gives the reigns to another. And Guiliman is known form order, a better quality for leader ship then Horus. Horus I think would have been a good second in command to Guiliman as Warmaster. If you are going to give a role specificly to one of the Primarch, give them all a role so they do not feel like they have been slighted in some way.



Quote: "Most didn't know about chaos, or didn't understand it from what I have read. Should they be curious, sure who wouldn't be. Does that mean the greatest humans ever need to have WTFHISSYFITS about it? I don't believe so, simply man up like some of the Primarchs did and carry on."

And the fact that the Primarch's were oblivious to Chaos is another of the emperor's failures. He leaves them vulnerable due to their ignorance. And then when Horus finds out about Chaos and has no knowledge of it before hand, which also makes him distrust the emperor because he knows the emperor didnt tell him about chaos, of course he is going to turn evil. He hungers for power, chaos can give it to him and tells him he can rule the galaxy, the ultimate conquest, it's what Horus has always wanted and feels like he is doing anyway while the Emperor sits in silence.



Quote"It is about coddling, Horus, Lorgar, Magnus, Mortarion, all wen't into panic when he said all right greatest humans every yall take over daddys got shit to do. Instead of being like do your thing we got this, they went waaaaaahh waaaaaay daaaddddyyy!!!!!

How was the goal unrealistic? Had they not fallen to petty rivalries and jealousy who would have stopped them?

Lorgar fell because in another dumb move by the emperor, Lorgar's perfect city was annihilated by Guiliman and the honor guard. That sent him over the edge. He should'nt have let Lorgar out after that. He dishonored him in such a way that there was no way he was'nt going to turn on them for what they did to his people and all in the name of the emperor. He Loved the emperor more then any primarch and then shattered his entire belief in a humiliating way, in front of an entire other legion. And then that gave his left and right hand man the oppurtunity to influence him in his mourning. Lorgar is the climax of the heresy. His descent is the slippery slope to heresy. If the most devout son loses his faith how can the others hope to keep loyal when they already have their own doubts?

The goal of taking over the galaxy is completely unrealistic. Even when they capture planets they go back into war later, and how do they plan to take out the rest of the alien races? I am all for the Imperium but without the emperor's aid the Primarchs alone would not have been able to take on all of the other races. Not to mention the universe is almost infinite by any standard so there goal is too expansive. REturn all the colonies from the old night and take over planets you need to colonize new worlds when you need to, kinda like the Eldar.



Quote "Only the whiny emo primarchs fell for this reason."

I think God like beings would be a little above whiny or emo, it's deeper then that, in all of them.





Quote:"Seriously, they were made to be perfect and needed to stop acting like children.

Yes I agree he should have, but he didn't. Lets wear our big boy pants and place them blame on the ones who deserve it.

I'm enjoying this!"

They were made to be perfect , but many were tainted by chaos from the get go when they were dispersed across the universe. And they are all big strong guys given the power to destroy worlds, the all have a little hubris in them so they are easily slighted and temperamental besides Guiliman who is damn near cynical in his cold responses to his brothers he doesn't agree with.
And I am quite enjoying this too [:



 
did it not post any of that? 
And it is a Lore war :D

[Domine Nox]

Okay first off I do disagree that the Emperor was responsible for the Heresy. I do however say that he very easily could have nipped the whole thing in the bud. Magnus, while a tad bit on the whiny side, was completely devoted to the Emperor and when he came to warn the Emperor of Horus' fall under the lies and manipulation of Lorgar and Erebus the Emperor just went "Don't care" and denounced Magnus for using sorcery rather than taking the time to listen to his warning and fixing the problem.

As for Primarchs themselves. Horus is pathetic. He was given the world and fell under Chaos sway because he thought he might not be remembered or be important in the future. Even the Lion El'Jonson (who I am not that fond of) was willing to be remembered badly if it meant serving the Emperor to his last breath (See Age of Darkness Novel).

Kurze and Angron are the only Primarchs with valid justification to resent the Emperor. Angron because the Emperor was an absolute horrible person to him. Angron was raised as a gadiator and had a bond of loyatly to his fellow prisone gladiators and staged an uprising to free them. The Emperor showed up, refused to help the uprising and insisted he take Angron away. Angron refused because he wanted to fight and die with his fellow gladiators and the Emperor just went "Umm no" and abducted him away letting him watch from space as the people he cared about died. I'd hold a grudge from that too.

Kurze raised himself. He's the only Primarch that was never raised. Even Jonson and Leman Russ were eventually taken in by people and taught the finer things of their worlds. Kurze was not. As for his betrayal. The Night Lords were the most successful Legion. They were the only Legion that had no planets backslide away from Imperium grasp during the crusade, because frankly they scared the crap out of everyone because they did really horrific things, but it worked. Then Rogal Dorn and a couple other Primarchs went ahead and decided that they didn't like his methods and convinced the Emperor to bring him to task for what he had done. He felt betrayed because everything he did was to carry out the Emperor's work of uniting the universe, he was good at it, and for his efforts the Emperor was going to sentence him to death. This is why he joins Horus, not because of Chaos, because Kurze denounces Chaos just as much as the Emperor, but because he sees it as a chance to get back at the Emperor for turning his back on him. This is also why when the Heresy fails and the Chaos worshippers flee into the Eye of Terror, Kurze goes to Tsagualsa and waits for the Emperor to kill him because he regrets falling in line with those that left for Chaos instead of his 'vindicated' reason and accepts the punishment for his mistake.

[Gerhart]

Okay first off I do disagree that the Emperor was responsible for the Heresy. I do however say that he very easily could have nipped the whole thing in the bud. Magnus, while a tad bit on the whiny side, was completely devoted to the Emperor and when he came to warn the Emperor of Horus' fall under the lies and manipulation of Lorgar and Erebus the Emperor just went "Don't care" and denounced Magnus for using sorcery rather than taking the time to listen to his warning and fixing the problem.

Magnus was already gone long before that, he was gone when he gave his soul to "save" his legion.

Kurze and Angron are the only Primarchs with valid justification to resent the Emperor. Angron because the Emperor was an absolute horrible person to him. Angron was raised as a gadiator and had a bond of loyatly to his fellow prisone gladiators and staged an uprising to free them. The Emperor showed up, refused to help the uprising and insisted he take Angron away. Angron refused because he wanted to fight and die with his fellow gladiators and the Emperor just went "Umm no" and abducted him away letting him watch from space as the people he cared about died. I'd hold a grudge from that too.

This part of the fluff is so against the way the way the Emperor is portrayed. This was a shitty way for GW to make Angron hate the Emperor. You can't tell me that the Emperor would turn down an attempt to fight, he loves it!

Kurze raised himself. He's the only Primarch that was never raised. Even Jonson and Leman Russ were eventually taken in by people and taught the finer things of their worlds. Kurze was not. As for his betrayal. The Night Lords were the most successful Legion. They were the only Legion that had no planets backslide away from Imperium grasp during the crusade, because frankly they scared the crap out of everyone because they did really horrific things, but it worked. Then Rogal Dorn and a couple other Primarchs went ahead and decided that they didn't like his methods and convinced the Emperor to bring him to task for what he had done. He felt betrayed because everything he did was to carry out the Emperor's work of uniting the universe, he was good at it, and for his efforts the Emperor was going to sentence him to death. This is why he joins Horus, not because of Chaos, because Kurze denounces Chaos just as much as the Emperor, but because he sees it as a chance to get back at the Emperor for turning his back on him. This is also why when the Heresy fails and the Chaos worshippers flee into the Eye of Terror, Kurze goes to Tsagualsa and waits for the Emperor to kill him because he regrets falling in line with those that left for Chaos instead of his 'vindicated' reason and accepts the punishment for his mistake.

Kruze was also crazy but lets not pay attention to that. So fear is the best way to instill compliance? Yes it worked, but was it right? If I was his Brother, I would disagree with his ways aswell. His "fear" method didn't work to well on his homeworld did it? How long before others fell back that way? Hell looking at it, Lorgars way would be far more effictive with keeping people loyal. His Brothers were rightly upset with his style, just like they were upset with Angrons.

He was not going to be senteced to death, he was going to be repremanded. Then he decided that he would kill his way out of it, and go destroy a "compliant" world. Rather then choose to use reason, and prove his cause he always fell back on violence. Attacking Dorn with his back turned becuase Dorn was blunt, killing "guards" to not stand for the way he did things like attacking Dorn, blowing up his world rather then attempt to fix it.

He made no attempts to connect with his Brothers, he was happy to be the "loner." Oh yea then he wen't ahead and attacked and killed loyal marines on Istavan, then on Terra. Then he finally decided that "I should die for being what the Emperor wanted me to be." Give me a fucking break, if he had really tried he would have been accepted.

[Domine Nox]

Give me a fucking break, if he had really tried he would have been accepted.

Well as you have stated a couple times. He was not entirely all there. If you met somebody that is schizophrenic would you say "Oh geeze, you're just not trying?"

Magnus was already gone long before that, he was gone when he gave his soul to "save" his legion

If you're going to chide the fluff for how they manipulate things like Angron then I think that is right up there in the same category.

So fear is the best way to instill compliance? Yes it worked, but was it right? If I was his Brother, I would disagree with his ways aswell.

Was it the best? No, but it worked. The Space Marines committed all kinds of atrocities including genocide time and time again. So it's okay to obliterate entire worlds and entire species, but unconventional means are a no no? That's an incredible double standard.

blowing up his world rather then attempt to fix it.

He did fix it. Twice. When he was on the planet before the Emperor came it was crime free because everyone was afraid of him. It kept backsliding when he left. He blew it up because he felt it was just going to keep backsliding and he didn't want the degenerates that the planet was producing to be space marines. He felt many of his legion were murderers and scum given super powers and didn't want that to happen any more.

Rather then choose to use reason, and prove his cause he always fell back on violence.

All of the Primarchs generally fall back on violence, and have their own little hangups. Dorn refused to believe Horus' treachery despite being told time and again. He almost kills Garrus when he risks his life to get that message out to Terra because he 'doesn't want to believe.' And hearing that 4 Legions turned traitor he doesn't even consider the possibility of others? I'm sorry that's blind loyalty which is the same trap Lorgar fell into.

[Gerhart]

Give me a fucking break, if he had really tried he would have been accepted.

Well as you have stated a couple times. He was not entirely all there. If you met somebody that is schizophrenic would you say "Oh geeze, you're just not trying?"

Ok so hes crazy, debate over?

Magnus was already gone long before that, he was gone when he gave his soul to "save" his legion

If you're going to chide the fluff for how they manipulate things like Angron then I think that is right up there in the same category.

Got me there, still though original point stands. He was already lost and didn't know it.

So fear is the best way to instill compliance? Yes it worked, but was it right? If I was his Brother, I would disagree with his ways aswell.

Was it the best? No, but it worked. The Space Marines committed all kinds of atrocities including genocide time and time again. So it's okay to obliterate entire worlds and entire species, but unconventional means are a no no? That's an incredible double standard.

Of course they did, there whole mission was domination. Most of the other attempted to parley atleast. Now as for species, what does this matter? Kill the alien has always been the code. Also he wasn't being repremanded for that, it was for almost beating Dorn to death when Dorn told him screw off.

blowing up his world rather then attempt to fix it.

He did fix it. Twice. When he was on the planet before the Emperor came it was crime free because everyone was afraid of him. It kept backsliding when he left. He blew it up because he felt it was just going to keep backsliding and he didn't want the degenerates that the planet was producing to be space marines. He felt many of his legion were murderers and scum given super powers and didn't want that to happen any more.

So kill everyone? Why not prove what was wrong, and get the help needed to fix it? No rather then even bring is issues to the Emperor, he says fuck it blows it up.

Rather then choose to use reason, and prove his cause he always fell back on violence.

All of the Primarchs generally fall back on violence, and have their own little hangups. Dorn refused to believe Horus' treachery despite being told time and again. He almost kills Garrus when he risks his life to get that message out to Terra because he 'doesn't want to believe.' And hearing that 4 Legions turned traitor he doesn't even consider the possibility of others? I'm sorry that's blind loyalty which is the same trap Lorgar fell into.

Not true Horus before he fell always tried peace as I'm sure many other did. As fluff always states how the methods used by the World Eaters killied everyone, and the Night Lords did it their way. True Dorns fault was trust in his Brothers. I can't fault him for not wanting to believe it, then when it did happen not wanting to believe others would follow. You would have to be a paranoid mess, Dorn was not.

You could use that same argument with Cruze and Nostramo.

[Grimaldus]

ok.....so lets try to calm down a bit

i will only say one thing, magnus try to warn the emperor, he use "sorcery" yes but it was the only one to send a direct message to the Emperor, when he did this the emperor send Russ to bring him back to terra, horus convinced russ that it was better to kill magnus than bring him to terra and give him the possibility of corrupt the emperor.

note: the emperor brand him a traitor because when he sent the message he breach a barrier inside the palace and allow demons to enter the palace, several people die but the emperor and the Custodes manage to kill all the demons

and i say again, lets try to calm down, i sense people are getting a little piss and i dont want this community breaking because someone its getting a grudge against someone else, also i will like to say that Curze its the batman of the 40k , and he is freaking awesome

[Yapay38]

OH GOD HOW DID I MISS THIS!!! CURSE YOU SLEEP!! LMFAO!

[Gerhart]

We are calm brother, just a good debate in my opinion.

[Yapay38]

Lol yeah but it was still funny to me.

[TheGodDernMan]

Lets dish, whos your favorite, least? Thoughts on different ones!

Favorite- Dorn, because he was perfect. Name a fault he has none.

Least- Lorgar and Cruze.

I actually felt bad for Fulgrim due to his entrapment/fall. No book has ever done that for me.

I agree completely about Fulgrim, I nearly frowned lol

[Domine Nox]

Also he wasn't being repremanded for that, it was for almost beating Dorn to death when Dorn told him screw off.

No he attempted to beat Dorn to death when he was told that he was going to be held to account for what his Legion was doing, and Dorn was the one that voiced that matter. He voluntarily submitted to being imprisoned when he was pried off of Dorn realizing he was acting in an unbefitting manner, only breaking out when he heard that Horus turned his back on the Emperor thinking Horus felt similarly 'turned on' as he had.

So kill everyone? Why not prove what was wrong, and get the help needed to fix it? No rather then even bring is issues to the Emperor, he says fuck it blows it up.

Extreme measures are the Imperium's solution. When Horus and the others turn the Imperium locks up everyone from their legions, even the ones that haven't seen their Primarchs or Legions in decades. Or we can go during the Heresy where Corax tries to make genetic monsters to replace his brothers and ends up killing thousands of test subjects in his genetic experiments, but that's okay? It's another poor method in service of the Emperor.

Not true Horus before he fell always tried peace as I'm sure many other did. As fluff always states how the methods used by the World Eaters killied everyone, and the Night Lords did it their way. True Dorns fault was trust in his Brothers. I can't fault him for not wanting to believe it, then when it did happen not wanting to believe others would follow. You would have to be a paranoid mess, Dorn was not.

Horus kills off members of humanoid species without justification before he sides with Chaos (Horus Rising, can't find my copy for more details, but it's there). Leman Russ is practically Kurze in a different light if you're going down this road. Why does he get a pass? And as for the 'Paranoid Mess' no, that's called reasonable doubt. When the legions turn Roboute Guilliman prepares his men on methods to fight all the other Legions in case they turn too.

And as a final point, since you are using Dorn as the counter point again and again as the ideal and beacon of Primarchness. When Peturabo sets up his world of super defenses towards the end of the Heresy Dorn goes after it just spite him because Peturabo baits him by claiming to be a superior defense engineer. Imperial Fists die to satisfy their petty quarrel. Hubris much?

[Draco Ny'ade]

is no-one going to support Vulkan here?

fave: Vulkan (who else!) - Sanguinius (wings are just awesome!)

least fave: all the traitors

[CruciasNZ]

I just woke and epic thread is epic

FYI the Emperor didn't want to be a god. He built the machine for magnus
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