67 replies to this topic

[Gerhart]

No he attempted to beat Dorn to death when he was told that he was going to be held to account for what his Legion was doing, and Dorn was the one that voiced that matter. He voluntarily submitted to being imprisoned when he was pried off of Dorn realizing he was acting in an unbefitting manner, only breaking out when he heard that Horus turned his back on the Emperor thinking Horus felt similarly 'turned on' as he had.

I need to re-listen to that audio book when I do I will respond.

Extreme measures are the Imperium's solution. When Horus and the others turn the Imperium locks up everyone from their legions, even the ones that haven't seen their Primarchs or Legions in decades.

Of course! Why would you trust any of them once their Primarch turned?

Or we can go during the Heresy where Corax tries to make genetic monsters to replace his brothers and ends up killing thousands of test subjects in his genetic experiments, but that's okay? It's another poor method in service of the Emperor.

I assume you haven't read the most recent HH book on the Ravens? I don't wish to spoil it for you then. But in regards to killing the mistakes/mutants......yes its ok we aren't debating killing mutants or xenos.

Horus kills off members of humanoid species without justification before he sides with Chaos (Horus Rising, can't find my copy for more details, but it's there). Leman Russ is practically Kurze in a different light if you're going down this road. Why does he get a pass? And as for the 'Paranoid Mess' no, that's called reasonable doubt. When the legions turn Roboute Guilliman prepares his men on methods to fight all the other Legions in case they turn too.

Yes at the begining of the book correct? You know when he sends his favorite Captain to seek a peaceful solution and they kill him? Sounds like a reason to me.

We never brought up Russ, but yes he was looked at wrongly just like Cruze and Angron. Though Russ it is hinted at is the destroyer of the missing legions.

Yes but that what made Guilliman great, and Dorn was a littile busy building the defenses on Terra.

And as a final point, since you are using Dorn as the counter point again and again as the ideal and beacon of Primarchness. When Peturabo sets up his world of super defenses towards the end of the Heresy Dorn goes after it just spite him because Peturabo baits him by claiming to be a superior defense engineer. Imperial Fists die to satisfy their petty quarrel. Hubris much?

Perhaps you need to re-read this section, http://wh40k.lexican...iki/Rogal_Dorn.

Some controversy exists about the next event in Rogal Dorn's life. What is clear is that the Imperial Fists could not be as easily divided into chapters as, for example the Ultramarines could. The total commitment to the legion was bred into each marine and many didn't wish to form their own chapters. Dorn found the answer to this problem in meditation through self-inflicted pain, using a device known as the Pain Glove. The pain-induced vision revealed that his legion had to be redeemed in the eyes of the Emperor, and that the way to salvation was through pain and self-sacrifice.

The 'collective pain' needed to cleanse the Chapter was decided by Dorn to be an Iron Warriors' fortress, the Iron Cage. Perturabo had built the massive fortifications to mock the Imperial Fists, and Dorn led his most die-hard followers in a siege that would last for several weeks. Followers of the Iron Warriors claim that the Imperial Fists suffered a crushing defeat, and that Dorn and his legion would have been wiped out if Perturabo hadn't prolonged Dorn's suffering so long that the Ultramarines managed to intervene.

Imperial records indicate otherwise. The Imperial Fists had always been masters of siege craft, and even unprepared and at a disadvantage they fought like lions. Dorn stood as a giant in their midst, his mind clear with purpose after years of doubt and guilt. The Iron Warriors would have had to sacrifice their lives and Primarch to destroy the Imperial Fists, a price they weren't ready to pay. The arrival of the Ultramarines cut the conflict short and the Iron Warriors fled for the Eye of Terror. The Imperial Fists had suffered staggering losses, but they had proved their loyalty to the Emperor and cleansed themselves of earlier failures.

He did it be redeemed. Doesn't sound like hubris to me.

[Siddicus]

Omg! War has broken out on the forums!

*On topic*

Loves: Angron, Konrad. Angron was a brutal son of a bitch and made it to daemonhood and the avatar of Khorne so i like him muchness. Konrad because his story is believeable plus how he stalked his planet cleaning up the shit *as in purgeing the weak criminalised bastards* is inspirational.

Hates: Fulgrim, even though he was probably the only primarch other than magnus who shows any sympathy or love to his gene sons. However he was weak and that weakness allowed him to become trapped for all eternity in a painting.


Dorn, he was the uber Pony.

[Domine Nox]

The 'collective pain' needed to cleanse the Chapter was decided by Dorn to be an Iron Warriors' fortress, the Iron Cage. Perturabo had built the massive fortifications to mock the Imperial Fists, and Dorn led his most die-hard followers in a siege that would last for several weeks. Followers of the Iron Warriors claim that the Imperial Fists suffered a crushing defeat, and that Dorn and his legion would have been wiped out if Perturabo hadn't prolonged Dorn's suffering so long that the Ultramarines managed to intervene.

Imperial records indicate otherwise. The Imperial Fists had always been masters of siege craft, and even unprepared and at a disadvantage they fought like lions. Dorn stood as a giant in their midst, his mind clear with purpose after years of doubt and guilt. The Iron Warriors would have had to sacrifice their lives and Primarch to destroy the Imperial Fists, a price they weren't ready to pay. The arrival of the Ultramarines cut the conflict short and the Iron Warriors fled for the Eye of Terror. The Imperial Fists had suffered staggering losses, but they had proved their loyalty to the Emperor and cleansed themselves of earlier failures.

Taken from the Lexicanum. That's heresay. Records put it both ways, so this invalidates both of us. Because it is uncorroborated.

I need to re-listen to that audio book when I do I will respond.

I'm basing this off accounts from Night Lords books, not the Audio book you're probably thinking of, so if information changed that's news to me.

I assume you haven't read the most recent HH book on the Ravens? I don't wish to spoil it for you then. But in regards to killing the mistakes/mutants......yes its ok we aren't debating killing mutants or xenos.

I have not, but it's supposed to be people he's experimenting on. Turning them into mutants to try and imitate the Emperor's work is abominable.

Yes but that what made Guilliman great, and Dorn was a littile busy building the defenses on Terra.

He still trusted the Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, and Iron Warriors on simple faith. Guilliman or Jonson would not have made that mistake.

Dorn found the answer to this problem in meditation through self-inflicted pain, using a device known as the Pain Glove. The pain-induced vision revealed that his legion had to be redeemed in the eyes of the Emperor, and that the way to salvation was through pain and self-sacrifice.

This almost sounds like something right out of Kurze's book. Masochism to have a vision to determine you need to repent? This is like the story of Kurze's life and Dorn did it on purpose.

And proving himself? Redeeming himself in the eyes of the Emperor. The Emperor is practically dead at this point. So is he buying into Lectitio Divinatus? Because that's against the Emperor's teachings and not popular until later.

A final point mutation is bad, correct? Well at this point in time the only 'pure' geneseed is the Ultramarines and the Night Lords. Everyone else has been developing mutations of some sort or another. Where is the line drawn?

[Gerhart]

Taken from the Lexicanum. That's heresay. Records put it both ways, so this invalidates both of us. Because it is uncorroborated.

I dont trust Traitors so meh.....I will conceed that point

I have not, but it's supposed to be people he's experimenting on. Turning them into mutants to try and imitate the Emperor's work is abominable.

Negative he is making SM's in weeks is the attempt. I wont spoil any more. So lets drop this one please.

He still trusted the Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, and Iron Warriors on simple faith. Guilliman or Jonson would not have made that mistake.

Why would he not trust them? He didn't hold grudges just expected people to do there duty. Dorns fault is trust.

This almost sounds like something right out of Kurze's book. Masochism to have a vision to determine you need to repent? This is like the story of Kurze's life and Dorn did it on purpose.

Doesn't sound the same to me, the IF's always did this. Perhaps its a matter of perception?

And proving himself? Redeeming himself in the eyes of the Emperor. The Emperor is practically dead at this point. So is he buying into Lectitio Divinatus? Because that's against the Emperor's teachings and not popular until later.

The Emperor was/is not dead. For what he believes are his failures he puts he searched for an answer. Come on he walked into a room to find two Brothers dead, and his father dieing! He WAS the Emperors Champion, and was unable to protect him.

A final point mutation is bad, correct? Well at this point in time the only 'pure' geneseed is the Ultramarines and the Night Lords. Everyone else has been developing mutations of some sort or another. Where is the line drawn?

Come on you know your stretching there for non-working organs being mutations. Plus the sons of Dorn don't need to spit or go into stasis.

[TheGodDernMan]

Taken from the Lexicanum. That's heresay. Records put it both ways, so this invalidates both of us. Because it is uncorroborated.

I dont trust Traitors so meh.....I will conceed that point

I have not, but it's supposed to be people he's experimenting on. Turning them into mutants to try and imitate the Emperor's work is abominable.

Negative he is making SM's in weeks is the attempt. I wont spoil any more. So lets drop this one please.

He still trusted the Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, and Iron Warriors on simple faith. Guilliman or Jonson would not have made that mistake.

Why would he not trust them? He didn't hold grudges just expected people to do there duty. Dorns fault is trust.

This almost sounds like something right out of Kurze's book. Masochism to have a vision to determine you need to repent? This is like the story of Kurze's life and Dorn did it on purpose.

Doesn't sound the same to me, the IF's always did this. Perhaps its a matter of perception?

And proving himself? Redeeming himself in the eyes of the Emperor. The Emperor is practically dead at this point. So is he buying into Lectitio Divinatus? Because that's against the Emperor's teachings and not popular until later.

The Emperor was/is not dead. For what he believes are his failures he puts he searched for an answer. Come on he walked into a room to find two Brothers dead, and his father dieing! He WAS the Emperors Champion, and was unable to protect him.

A final point mutation is bad, correct? Well at this point in time the only 'pure' geneseed is the Ultramarines and the Night Lords. Everyone else has been developing mutations of some sort or another. Where is the line drawn?

Come on you know your stretching there. Plus the sons of Dorn don't need to spit or go into stasis.

The Dark Angels have no mutations

[CruciasNZ]

STOP MULTI-QUOTING!!!!!!!!!!

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE

Splitting up quotes like Gerhart did is fine, but do not quote massive posts, and certainly do not create posts with multiple generations of quotes.

It crashes out Tapatalk and causes slow phone connections to take forever to download not much. Keep doing it and I will lock threads the second it begins.

Now you have all been scolded back on topic.

[Armoured Priest]

OH GOD HOW DID I MISS THIS!!! CURSE YOU SLEEP!! LMFAO!

That's exactly how I feel right now, fluff war is fluffy.

Angry crucias is angry.

Supporting Horus: I liked him BEFORE he had the doubts in and manipulated by my legion (word bearers).

I think the basis for alot of this is the fact that the chaos gods scattered them before they grow into adults. Which of course means there of couse would of been daddy issues when the emperor appears out of the blue to them and says "I am you'er father". Not to metion when the dark gods cast them across the galaxy, the planted seeds that may or may not grow in to full blown heresy with the right circumstances presented itself.

[Good Monsin]

I know he didn't want to be a god but that i s what chaos said to Horus to lead him astray.

[Domine Nox]

The Dark Angels have no mutations

True, had to double check. Their lack of successors and what not is due to their bad rep, more than geneseed defect.

The Emperor was/is not dead. For what he believes are his failures he puts he searched for an answer. Come on he walked into a room to find two Brothers dead, and his father dieing! He WAS the Emperors Champion, and was unable to protect him.

Fighting an unnecessary battle redeems him? Regardless of whether he was doing great or poorly, every Marine that died on that attack was on his hands as well when he could instead have blasted the planet to pieces and destroyed a traitor in one fell swoop. His 'redemption' took center stage.

Come on you know your stretching there for non-working organs being mutations. Plus the sons of Dorn don't need to spit or go into stasis.

Stretch? Yes, but it's interesting that the Night Lords shady tactics or the World Eaters over enthusiasm for combat was looked at as unacceptable, but in a universe preaching destroy the mutant you had Space Wolves running around trying to control the Wulfen. Granted the Space Marine themselves are in essence mutated, so really it's a self imposed double standard. But then again the Imperium is full of those. Preach one thing, practice whatever.


"Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication." - Last Words of Konrad Curze.

[sonofultramar]

Favorite: Roboute Guilliman

Least: Horus

[Grimaldus]

i just want to clarify something, rogal dorn wasnt the Emperor champion, the emperor champion was Sigismund he later became the fist High Marshal of the Black Templars, Dorn choose him to be the Emperor champion during the Heresy

EDIT: Dorn was know as the Emperor praetorian

[Gerhart]

Fighting an unnecessary battle redeems him? Regardless of whether he was doing great or poorly, every Marine that died on that attack was on his hands as well when he could instead have blasted the planet to pieces and destroyed a traitor in one fell swoop. His 'redemption' took center stage.

His wasn't just his redemption, it was the legions and the only way he felt he could break them up. He expected an honorable battle, and wanted to capture Perturabo alive. Purification in battle.

Stretch? Yes, but it's interesting that the Night Lords shady tactics or the World Eaters over enthusiasm for combat was looked at as unacceptable, but in a universe preaching destroy the mutant you had Space Wolves running around trying to control the Wulfen. Granted the Space Marine themselves are in essence mutated, so really it's a self imposed double standard. But then again the Imperium is full of those. Preach one thing, practice whatever.

So we are done with this one?

Also I know I read that Dorn was the first Emperors Champion, and bestowed it too Sigismund. I know I read it, just searching for it like crazy now! hahahah

Good fun Nox! I enjoyed this.

[Yapay38]

INB4 thread locked

[Gerhart]

why?

[Armoured Priest]

In before next fluff war.

[Domine Nox]

??????horus did.....

The second civil war never started before it all hit the fan, Dorn relented. We can discuss this in the primarchs thread if you would like. I would rather not flood this one

As per the above quote. The second civil war never hit the fan, and he did relent, but he still was adamantly against a valid and backed solution to the change of state.

After the Horus Heresy, Roboute Guilliman set himself to create the Codex Astartes, which would define the tactics and organization of all Space Marines, from battlefield strategies to squad markings. Most important of these changes was the division of the Legions into 1,000-strong Chapters... In doing so, Guilliman hoped to divide the power of the Space Marines to ensure that the Horus Heresy could never occur again. This, however, caused dissention among the remaining Primarchs. Rogal Dorn, Vulkan and Leman Russ opposed the splitting of their legions while Guilliman himself was supported by Jaghatai Khan and Corax. Neither side was willing to relent and the controversy grew more intense with Rogal Dorn calling Guilliman a coward for not having participated in the Siege of Terra, and Guilliman accused Dorn of being a rebel for his refusal to follow the Codex.

So Roboute Guilliman set up a plan with valid justification to prevent a repeat of present history. Dorn refused because he was intractable and set in his ways. Additionally he tries to call Guilliman a coward for being absent during the Seige of Terra.

Before Horus declared his treachery against the Emperor, he had ordered the Ultramarines Legion to go to the Veridan System in Segmentum Tempestus far to the galactic south, claiming that the system was under attack by an Ork invasion force from the Ghaslakh Empire....As Roboute and his fleets arrived at Calth, they knew something was wrong, because none of their Astropaths could get messages through the Warp and the storms were interfering with the navigation of their ships; they were blocked from the rest of the Imperium. It was at this moment that the traitor forces of the Word Bearers Legion attacked, rendering the Ultramarines unable to participate in much of the Battle for Terra.... Upon learning of the treachery, Roboute immediately set course for Terra, destroying Chaos reinforcements along the way, but arrived after the war had already been won.

Yeah... totally a coward. Seems to me like a certain Primarch was a little to set in his ways and lacked scope to appreciate all the angles.

Oh and jumping back a few topics this is from the Ultramarines perspective of the Iron Cage.

Roboute Guilliman advised his brother against the siege, but bitter having lost resolve to Guilliman in The Codex Crisis, Dorn wished to vent his anger and frustration on his most bitter of rivals. Hundreds of imperial fists littered the grounds of the fortress before Guilliman and the Ultramarine relief force arrived, three weeks and six days later. Guilliman had advised Dorn to wait, but out of spite Dorn had thrown his men into the fray, cutting their numbers to meet the new codex astartes specifications. The Imperial Fists had fought without sleep and had long run out of ammunition before the Ultramarines found them.

So that's Chaos and the Ultramarines saying that it was a bad decision and sucked for the Fists. Only the Fists say they owned everything before them.

[Yapay38]

ROUND 2......FIGHT

[Armoured Priest]

I announce Fluffly fluff war II.

[Grimaldus]

and so has begun the second forum war

NOTE: damit, yapay and priest beat me to announce it

[Gerhart]

Nox I love ya, but there is no debating any of that. I feel like your grasping at straws.

He was standing for what he believed in, whos to say his way wouldn't have been better? Guilliman was backed by the High Lords, they were scared to death of AA's and felt breaking them up was the only way to ensure it not happening again.

Your last part is just off, of course everyone has a different perspective. I choose to believe in Dorns. What you want to believe is up to you, untill they write a book about it; its all up in the air.