58 replies to this topic

[TheGodDernMan]

Reguarding the Codex....the Ultramarines are really the only Legion that are truly following it. Every other Legion only did it to hold peace within the imperium for the most part.

[Domine Nox]

[quote='Domine Nox' pid='14930' dateline='1330557681']
The Great Crusade

With the exception of the Luna Wolves, no Legion conquered as many worlds, or conquered worlds as fast, or left conquered worlds in such good state during the Great Crusade, as the Ultramarines. Whenever Guilliman liberated a world, he would not move on until he had set up a self-sufficient defense system, and left advisors behind to create industry, set up trade routes with the rest of the Imperium, and form a government whose first concern would always be the well-being of the people[1b]. [/quote]

And if you follow that 1b to the source it is directly taken from, the Space Marine's Codex, page 13.
[/quote]
The 'Codex' mentioned here is the SPACE MARINE CODEX published by Games Workshop 2008...

[DarkLibrarius]

As far as I am concerned it goes thus...

The Luna Wolves conquered the most worlds that much is known. But do we really know what shape they left the worlds in their wake? It's safe to assume they left contingents of Imperial Clergy and the like along with a small to medium force of Imperial Guard.

It is known that the Ultramarines also conquered a fair share of worlds but its not stated that they surpassed the Dark Angels or the Luna Wolves. Also I would venture to say that while the Ultramarines left the planets in the best shape it would take a great deal of time and resources to build all these cities and citadels that are spoke of.

From what I've read about the Dark Angels they are not the kind of Chapter that would just up and leave them with a bare bones force. I'd assume they gave the planet a fairly strong infrastructure and a fair sized force of Jaegers to defend the conquered planet. And its also cannon that even the Emperors Executioners the Space Wolves could not keep up.

As much as I hate to say it goes Luna Wolves, Dark Angels followed by the Space Wolves. But then again there is no definitive answer to this burning question. But the evidence points towards my hypothesis.

[TheGodDernMan]

As far as I am concerned it goes thus...

The Luna Wolves conquered the most worlds that much is known. But do we really know what shape they left the worlds in their wake? It's safe to assume they left contingents of Imperial Clergy and the like along with a small to medium force of Imperial Guard.

It is known that the Ultramarines also conquered a fair share of worlds but its not stated that they surpassed the Dark Angels or the Luna Wolves. Also I would venture to say that while the Ultramarines left the planets in the best shape it would take a great deal of time and resources to build all these cities and citadels that are spoke of.

From what I've read about the Dark Angels they are not the kind of Chapter that would just up and leave them with a bare bones force. I'd assume they gave the planet a fairly strong infrastructure and a fair sized force of Jaegers to defend the conquered planet. And its also cannon that even the Emperors Executioners the Space Wolves could not keep up.

As much as I hate to say it goes Luna Wolves, Dark Angels followed by the Space Wolves. But then again there is no definitive answer to this burning question. But the evidence points towards my hypothesis.

lol YOU ARE MY HERO!!!

[Domine Nox]

So everyone is ignoring this excerpt from a GW Codex.

With the exception of the Luna Wolves, no Legion conquered as many worlds, or conquered worlds as fast, or left conquered worlds in such good state during the Great Crusade, as the Ultramarines.

But is taking this one as law.

As the space marine legions pushed forward the frontiers of the Imperium. Each Primarch strove to excel in the eyes of the Emperor and none more so then the bombastic Leman Russ Primarch of the Space Wolves. Only Horus and Lion El'Jonson could claim more victories then Russ, and this was a constant frustration to him.

One cannot pick and choose. Either you have to accept both as conflicting reports in which case the entire argument is moot because two things are saying the same thing about different groups. Or you have to find more sources than the codex's, which you probably can't until they bring that angle more to light in the Black Library novels.

[DarkLibrarius]

That is why I made an assumption on who conquered the most. The 40K universe is full of conflicting information. Sometimes you just have to piece things together that you read and take bits from the codex and "cannon" information and come up with a conclusion.

[TheGodDernMan]

it was never intended to be a primarchs or an astartes place to handle planet economics, trade, government, and civil matters. They were to war and crusade. The administratums duty was to handle these things upon appointment per planet. So in my opinion the ultramarines may have wasted time.

[Domine Nox]

To carry out the Great Crusade and reunite all the scattered colony worlds of Mankind beneath the single banner of the Imperium of Man, the Emperor created the Space Marine Legions of the Adeptus Astartes and the Imperial Army. These forces would bring the light of Imperial Truth and enforce Imperial Compliance with the new regime on every human world encountered.

According to that they were expected to bring compliance. Compliance is not achieved by "We won, behave, goodbye." It's achieved by setting up a good infrastructure... or scaring the crap out of the populace. As the Night Lords are the only Legion that did not have any worlds they conquered later forsake the Emperor during the crusade. But we know they didn't conquer the most, so not relevant to this thread.

[OrkPork]

it was never intended to be a primarchs or an astartes place to handle planet economics, trade, government, and civil matters. They were to war and crusade. The administratums duty was to handle these things upon appointment per planet. So in my opinion the ultramarines may have wasted time.

At least one of the worlds conquered by Horus not only slid out of compliance later on, but fell to Chaos. This is brought up in the Horus Heresy series, and is largely due to Horus' practice of conquering a world, appointing a governor and moving on.

Guilliman was cautious and for good reason.

[Gerhart]

That is why I made an assumption on who conquered the most. The 40K universe is full of conflicting information. Sometimes you just have to piece things together that you read and take bits from the codex and "cannon" information and come up with a conclusion.

I'm sorry but that is a joke. The HH series, official codex's make mention that the only one to best the Ultramarines were the Luna Wolves. You get only the DA Codex saying different, and thats the conclusion? Seems heavy biased to me brother, you can't just take the bits and pieces you want and scrap the rest.

[TheGodDernMan]

it was never intended to be a primarchs or an astartes place to handle planet economics, trade, government, and civil matters. They were to war and crusade. The administratums duty was to handle these things upon appointment per planet. So in my opinion the ultramarines may have wasted time.

At least one of the worlds conquered by Horus not only slid out of compliance later on, but fell to Chaos. This is brought up in the Horus Heresy series, and is largely due to Horus' practice of conquering a world, appointing a governor and moving on.

Guilliman was cautious and for good reason.

Granted that that was the first world to have a possessed space marine and intro to the hersey pre davin.

[Assassinatus41]

Our Primarch is still alive, racking up victories somewhere in the Eye of Terror.

[Domine Nox]

In theory the Lion is still alive too planning how to save the Emperor and the Imperium from deep inside the Rock.

Guilliman is also technically alive, though if he comes out of stasis all bets are off. So of the Primarchs that are being argued over as 'the most victories' the only one who is definitely the most victorious (Horus) is also the only one who is definitively dead.

[Assassinatus41]

In theory the Lion is still alive too planning how to save the Emperor and the Imperium from deep inside the Rock.

Guilliman is also technically alive, though if he comes out of stasis all bets are off. So of the Primarchs that are being argued over as 'the most victories' the only one who is definitely the most victorious (Horus) is also the only one who is definitively dead.

Well put! Also Sanguinius is dead, but he helped the Emperor defeat Horus, so that's a big plus for him. Isn't Dorn dead too? Or is he one of the lost/stasis Primarchs?

[Gerhart]

Dead, stopping a early black crusade before it could start.

[OrkPork]

it was never intended to be a primarchs or an astartes place to handle planet economics, trade, government, and civil matters. They were to war and crusade. The administratums duty was to handle these things upon appointment per planet. So in my opinion the ultramarines may have wasted time.

At least one of the worlds conquered by Horus not only slid out of compliance later on, but fell to Chaos. This is brought up in the Horus Heresy series, and is largely due to Horus' practice of conquering a world, appointing a governor and moving on.

Guilliman was cautious and for good reason.

Granted that that was the first world to have a possessed space marine and intro to the hersey pre davin.

The world where Jubal was possessed, 6319, did not fall to chaos following the 63rd expedition's conquest of that world. Chaos already had a presence there. Davin is the world that I was referring to.

Regardless, the thing about fucking up is that you only have to do it once. Horus did not take appropriate measures to ensure Davin was truly compliant before moving on. Even he admits that he was too eager for the next battle, the next conquest. This directly led to his corruption.

I'm not a huge Ultramarine fan, but still, to accuse them of wasting time in their methods during the Crusade is foolish.

[Grimaldus]

Dead, stopping a early black crusade before it could start.

maybe no you may want to read lexi

[Domine Nox]

Taken directly from the Lexicanum.

Rogal Dorn died fighting on board a Chaos ship, after attacking a Black Crusade fleet with a vastly outnumbered force. Seeing the importance of attacking the enemy fleet while they were still preparing he relied on hit-and-run attacks until his reinforcements could arrive. Dorn died on board the Despoiler Class Battleship Sword of Sacrilege after leading a desperate attack on its bridge. His remains were recovered and his engraved skeletal hand is kept in stasis by his chapter.

Dorn's skeleton without his hands is kept within a chapel, and embedded in clear amber contoured to the body form of the Primarch himself. Dorn's skeletal fists are kept within two shrines, the bones intricately engraved with the heraldry of all the Chapter's previous Masters. Only the Chapter Master has the right to engrave his name upon the bones. Each bone corresponds to former commanders.

Dorn is dead, they have his bones.

[Gerhart]

Thank you, the only Primarch that stayed true to defending his fathers Empire. All the rest ran off on some wild goose chase or are sleeping.

[Domine Nox]

Roboute Guilliman: Wild Goose Chase?

in a battle against the Emperor's Children, Guilliman would meet his end. Where Alpharius had not greatly embraced the Chaos powers, and was essentially unchanged from his original Primarch form, Fulgrim had been to the Eye of Terror, reaping the terrible powers therein, and had been elevated by Slaanesh to a mighty and fell Daemon Prince, no longer resembling a man, but his original purity of form corrupted and augmented by the ruinous powers. Fulgrim was now a serpentine creature of immense stature, and multi-limbed. Each limb carried a poisoned sword, and in the clash he stabbed Guilliman in the neck; Guilliman was interred in the Stasis field by the Apothecaries, and remains frozen in the instant of death, while Fulgrim escaped back to the Eye of Terror