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Can We ALL Please Calm the F*** Down?


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#1 Batman2213

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:20 PM

For those who care about what I have to say, thank you for reading. For those who don't, feel free to move on. I am not interested in arguing, debating, trolling, flaming or anything other confrontation or conflict. Not here, not now.

I'm growing increasingly frustrated with this community, and although it is NOT my intent to point fingers at anyone in particular, I would like to share my reasons for feeling this way. I'm hoping that taking the time to type this out will help me work through it, and although I could post this in private somewhere, I feel like this needs to be public. So here goes nothing...

One of the greatest challenges facing any community larger than one individual is that unity of opinions, values, morals, etc. isn't 100% possible. Differences can and frequently do lead to conflict, and in order for any community to survive, it must have some sort of system for resolving conflict. Naturally these systems are never perfect, because WE are not perfect. However, like just about anything else we create, these systems can be modified and improved over time, in order to meet the evolving needs of the communities they serve.

When the health of this community was threatened by one of its Faction Leaders attempting to recruit people away, the staff responded to that threat by banning the offending person(s). This reaction may seem extreme to some, but consider if this had happened in a real-life setting. If a corporate executive decides to encourage people he works with to start working for a competitor, he's going to get fired. If a member of the military encourages dissertion or defection, he is going to be charged and punished for his crimes accordingly. Under the Uniformed Code of Military Justice, those crimes are punishable by death. Although this is a website and this is "just" an online community, the response of the staff was proportional (in this setting) to the offense.

There are some who felt that the staff was too heavy handed in this case; some who argued that they should involve other leaders in the community in dealing with situations such as this. This idea was considered and found to have merit, and thus the Inner Council was formed. Their purpose is to deal with tough issues that affect the health of the whole community, and to do so rationally, leaving emotion at the door to the best of their ability. The six members of the staff who sit on this council are balanced by six faction leaders that are NOT a part of the Gothic Wars staff; they are members of the community. I am one of these six, and I believe my reputation speaks for itself. I am loyal to my chapter, but I am also loyal to the larger community. I am friendly to most, and I am NOBODY's "bitch". I think it is safe to say that the other members of the council could be described in similar terms.

We've had to address a few serious issues since the council's inception, the most recent and most high profile being the situation with Gerhart. These issues were dealt with to the best of our ability, and in my opinion, they were dealt with well. Note: I did NOT say they were dealt with perfectly. To be honest, I don't believe a "perfect" solution is possible in this case. Gerhart's removal from this community has (not surprisingly) caused uproar among his loyal brothers, and even members of the community who do not belong to his chapter disagree with his banning. However, there are others who feel just as strongly that his conduct warranted this action, and therefore they agree with the council's decision.

This train of thought has brought me back to my original thoughts about communities comprised of more than a single individual. The odds of any such community reaching 100% agreement about anything diminish the larger that community grows. The decision to ban Gerhart did not have 100% support among the Inner Council, comprised of only 12 people; therefore it is NOT surprising that the decision faces opposition from some members of the larger community.

What is (a bit) surprising, and also disappointing (to me), is the way that opposition has manifested. I knew the majority of the Crimson Fists would not take kindly to the announcement. Frankly, I admire their loyalty to their leader and to each other. However, I feel very strongly that some (NOT ALL) are aggrevating an already difficult situation with their conduct. The ones I take issue with are those who behave as if the whole chapter is being persecuted because of the council's decision to take action against ONE person. A few act out in ways that bring the term "drama queen" to mind; stirring up animosity and generally being unpleasant and/or inflammatory. I think this behavior reinforces the council's arguement rather than refuting it. Similar Conduct = Similar Consequences... just sayin'.

Some members of the Crimson Fists (Blood Bone, Simon), as well as other members of the community (Nox), have posted their disagreement (my opinion about your post Nox, I am aware of your claim of not taking sides) with the council's decision in a way that gives credit to their point of view. They bring up rational arguements against the ban, they mention possible second-order consequences of this course of action, and generally share their point of view without trying to make things WORSE. I don't really know exactly where I'm going with this paragraph, other than making sure you all understand I am not trying to over-generalize or group everyone into one category or another. Sorry. ;)

Lastly, I want to say that I'm a bit disappointed with they way some of our community leaders have decided to "go native" and respond to the "irrational" behavior of others by acting in kind. Although it could be argued that they are simply mirroring those people in order to illustrate how "ridiculous" their behavior seems to be, it could also be construed as hypocracy. How is it wrong for some members to "Abuse the Post Reporting System" or to commit acts of "trolling/baiting" but perfectly acceptable for others to do the same? :huh: Maybe I'm missing the point; maybe we're all just wound up too tightly and you're trying to alleviate tension by showing a sense of humor... but in this case I feel that those who are responsible for maintaining the health of this community by monitoring the conduct of its members are undermining their own position by behaving like the alleged "problem-children".


In Summary:

1. This community needs to have a method for resolving internal conflicts and issues created by the conduct of its individual members. At this time, the Inner Council is the best we've got. Although the council is not perfect, we do the best we can.

2. Our imperfect system is never going to resolve issues in a way that is 100% satisfactory to 100% of the community. However, disagreement with decisions made by the council do not justify attacks on the character of council members, nor does such disagreement justify further violations of the rules of the community. If you disagree with some rules, consider being an advocate for change. If this doesn't seem feesible, consider whether or not you really want to be a part of this community.

3. I don't particularly like the way some people have started acting out in response to the difficult situations this community is dealing with. This conduct seems counter-productive at best, and deliberately harmful at worst. I am not a fan of censorship, but a little self-restraint would go a long way in my opinion. This applies to members of the staff as well as those they are mimicking. I'm not trying to enforce my own values or morals on anyone, I simply don't like what I see and feel the need to say so.

So now that I've pissed off everyone on both sides of this issue, I guess you can all direct your wrath at me for a change, instead of constantly going after each other. I've done my best to express my feelings on this subject without being offensive, although I realize I've probably failed to some degree or another.
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#2 Dragon-Silver

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:29 PM

Good post, nicely done.
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#3 ogreninja

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:35 PM

I dont think you will piss people off but it could cause trolling as seems the trend at the moment . I think you got your point across though it did ramble on at points, you seem to be the voice of reason in the present shite storm, with the other threads i think its a case of trolling the trolls to show them how it feels though it does look bad on thier part rising to it. some thing that is childish in all this is the fact that there are accounts being created just so the trolling can continue
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#4 Batman2213

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:42 PM

I dont think you will piss people off but it could cause trolling as seems the trend at the moment . I think you got your point across though it did ramble on at points, you seem to be the voice of reason in the present shite storm, with the other threads i think its a case of trolling the trolls to show them how it feels though it does look bad on thier part rising to it. some thing that is childish in all this is the fact that there are accounts being created just so the trolling can continue


Thanks man. Those who want to troll will troll, whether I post or not. Most of the other relevant threads are locked... I just wanted ONE opportunity to get my thoughts out there... its kind of thereputic. As for rambling... it wasn't deliberate but I was aware of it... hard to focus after three consecutive days of 4am-8pm out at the range. :derp:
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#5 ogreninja

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:58 PM

i dont blame you for rambling then fella im surprised you could form coherent thought enough to form the initial post i know after that long a set of shifts i couldnt lol
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#6 Lothair

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:00 PM

I believe the situation was handled as well as it could've been. It's typical that some community members disagree with the opinion, but if the majority of the Council has determined Gerhart's ban then they may either stick with it, or leave GW. Instead, they decided to flame, and that was predictable.

However, I do not believe that there is a way for us to resolve such issues and conflicts peacefully. Having been part of the GW for the last 5 months, I've seen enough shows of character/politics from a number of community members, and honestly I cannot believe that some of them are over 20years old or have families of their own. Many users are extremely ego-centric, big-headed or have 'leader-issues' which should not be seen amongst adults who simply want to have fun while playing some console games. People have extreme problems with losing - in video games. Wow, imagine their behaviour when something bad happens in RL. It's as if nobody gave them a good lesson in life and kicked their asses. "I'm the best, f**k the rest"... oh really?

Personal opinion: Gerhart had it coming for a long time, and I am extremely happy of the end result, despite being just a regular trooper from the Night Lords without any 'power' on the site that so many people so ridiculously crave. Gerhart has never lost a single game without putting the blame on somebody else or cheating and was always sending 'apologetic' messages filled with insults and the middle finger, while giving a smiley face to indicate that he is just joking. The rage that emanated from his messages told me that I don't want to be a part of the community with such immature people - and in fact Leaders. His removal made my day and I thank the council for it: GW is better without him. I only do not get one thing: why did it take so long to get rid of him?

What I think the GW should do is:
- focus on leaders who are mature, are able to look at themselves from a distance and know how to keep their ego at bay, and such people should lead the other members who don't care for leadership or simply have personality issues.
- try to create a more user friendly atmosphere: no trolling, no hate speeches, no rage-venting on the forums. All of this should end with warnings and bans and should be stopped - and not SUPPORTED - by faction leaders.
- do not worry about kicking people who are causing problems. We have plenty of members and can recruit new guys for our cause from Xbox live. GW should not be desperate in keeping people: they should want to be a part of this group and know the rules, and if not - lose them and get someone else.

Just a personal opinion. Sorry for any grammar/spelling mistakes, but English is not my main language.


#7 Dragon-Silver

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:16 PM

Night Lords for best chapter 2012.
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#8 Batman2213

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:20 PM

I believe the situation was handled as well as it could've been.


We try. Thanks.


I only do not get one thing: why did it take so long to get rid of him?


Well, extreme sanction is and should be a last resort, after all other options have been exhausted. Maybe the timeframe for this particular case was too long... that is debateable but I honestly don't have an opinion one way or the other. When the call came for discussing this case, I participated.

What I think the GW should do is:
- focus on leaders who are mature, are able to look at themselves from a distance and know how to keep their ego at bay, and such people should lead the other members who don't care for leadership or simply have personality issues.
- try to create a more user friendly atmosphere: no trolling, no hate speeches, no rage-venting on the forums. All of this should end with warnings and bans and should be stopped - and not SUPPORTED - by faction leaders.
- do not worry about kicking people who are causing problems. We have plenty of members and can recruit new guys for our cause from Xbox live. GW should not be desperate in keeping people: they should want to be a part of this group and know the rules, and if not - lose them and get someone else.


Leaders are chosen by their factions, not by the Gothic Wars staff.

We are trying to create a more user-friendly atmosphere... that is the counsel's #1 priority in my opinion. However, people have free will and will behave as they choose... we can encourage or discourage certain behaviors but cannot do much beyond that. There is a system in place for warnings and bans, and although some may feel this system is used too liberally, I believe it is used when necessary.

Unfortunately we cannot exist totally without worry... actions have consequences. The consequence of Gerhart's pattern of behavior was the ban; the consequence of the council's decision to ban him is the fallout that has followed. Hopefully it will run its course and we can move on; but some may not be satisfied with this arrangement and second-order consequences (i.e. further departures) may follow. I believe Gothic Wars will survive, but it still hurts to see things like this happen.

Just a personal opinion. Sorry for any grammar/spelling mistakes, but English is not my main language.


Your English is just fine, don't apologize for speaking a different native language. :D
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#9 Talon Lord Othrim

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:35 PM

I would just like to say a personal thankyou to those who so far have posted in this thread. There are a lot of points here I agree with and often people mistake my silence in issues for not caring. I am a listener and often when try to speak don't put things across in text as well as I would like but those comments made here sum up my opinions very closely so Thankyou.


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#10 Simonbarsinistr

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:42 PM

I think your post is great, batman. You're looking at it as objectively as you can, and pointing out things that concern you with the situation. People on two sides of an argument have a tendency not to listen to each other, even if valid points are made during the fighting. Hopefully anyone that reads your post can take the time to evaluate themselves and see where they can improve their behavior.

And on a final note to Lothair, I do sort of worry about replacing our community. We came together as 40k and video game nerds, and there was limited places to go, so we all ended up here. That player base is shrinking, less and less of us playing that game. And as we move to other games, we don't have the same small player base. Halo is huge, there are halo forums way bigger and more established than this site, there will be more options for people to go besides here.

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#11 Lothair

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:20 PM

No worries, we will be our regular 40k nerds playing more Halo and less SM until another Wh40k title comes out. From what I'm seeing people are still playing together, just switching titles. Not many have left so far.

We are talking about kicking people with behaviour issues, and fortunately, only the minority has those. Unfortunately, it was the case with a faction leader this time. Let's care about the majority of users, not everyone. Fortunately most people know when to shut up after receiving a warning. Those that don't - well, we shouldn't care about them. Let's not waste time on spoiled brats as this is not a correction facility os the psychologist's office. Respect the site rules and user rights or face the consequences. If some users think that their own opinion is the word of a higher power, then they should be put in place as mr. Gerhart.

Also, it cannot lead to such a silly situation in which the mods/council members are afraid to give warnings or bans to avoid the aftershock that comes with - hundreds of reports, flames etc- all of which are taking their time. They are humans and it is their precious time that keeps this up and running, so if people are misbehaving and acting like spoiled brats, they they shouldn't waste their time. Warn, then ban and let's get it over with. The threads from yesterday, though entertaining, were just exactly that thing - people wasting their time.

#12 Domine Nox

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:38 PM

Warn, then ban and let's get it over with. The threads from yesterday, though entertaining, were just exactly that thing - people wasting their time.


Then why were they condoned? Every post in those threads was a condoning of behavior that it seems the community is against. If rules are rules, and are going to be enforced then regardless of the situation those in authority should not lower themselves to doing what is stated as unacceptable behavior.

The way the day stood with Gerhart's ban, while I did not agree with it, they made their decision, they had their reasons, and that was perfectly fine. But the actions and reactions that followed make everyone seem childish and silly. To support, and partake in the nonsense that followed undermines everything that was the ground upon with Gerhart's ban and the rules are founded.

The thread Sammael put up was a troll, and you all in turn trolled right along with him. By the letter of what people are so outraged against all of you in that thread should have warnings, and be subject to review for bans. Follow the rules, behave like adults, or else don't pretend that that's why things are done the way they are. If some people can act like childish idiots and that's okay, while for others it is not. Then those are not rules.

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#13 Lothair

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:44 PM

True Nox, although I think that this allowed some members to vent their emotions (and was cheep entertainment for all the rest). Otherwise, more of the CF - Sam, White - would be off this site immediately. In this case, one day of venting went on, and now maybe things will be back to normal.

#14 DTdante2787

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:44 PM

Well said Batman....been busy so can't always reply as fast as I'd like. As you said, the system will by definition ALWAYS be slightly imperfect, as that is the nature of the beast. However, the mod team and inner council do the best we can (as you know).

Setting up a community like this has to be a game of give and take. In order for there to be relative peace, certain members must step up to enforce the general codes of conduct, else there will be complete anarchy (not unlike XBL, which is precisely why I personally was drawn to this site). That's my two cents at least

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#15 Bloodbone

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:32 PM

I like what you said Batman, it was well conceived and gave a lot of insight on the matter at hand.

 
If you go after Sam, you have to go after most of the people in that thread. The Mods were playing into it and that is not what they should have done. So in turn they will have to take actions against themselves because they just encouraged it rather than putting an end to it. Fair is fair after all, and if they do not warn everyone else then they are all hypocrites.
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#16 Keiya

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:42 PM

Away from the bashing on previous threads and please stick to the topic. I'm sure that moderating with an iron fist can be accommodated.

Batman - As humorous as it is for me to talk to my best friend, Romulus Sorvian as he is known on the forums, and inform him "So I read a thread by Batman today" I must say that your post is very admirable. Insight and outlook like this are what really fume from those who are concerned and show care in what they have around them. Thank you for taking the time.

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#17 REAPER xDAx

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:48 PM

This was very well written and I agree with what you were saying.

#18 CruciasNZ

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 09:33 PM

As always well written Batman. Just an interesting diversion, Batman was nominated to council because when he writes a counter-argument he does it in an extremely detailed way without ever raising tempers.

Anyway, onwards

His removal made my day and I thank the council for it: GW is better without him. I only do not get one thing: why did it take so long to get rid of him?


While I'm sure trolls will love this comment, the answer to that was respect for his past contributions and his chapter's love of him. As stated in the public release, we did try for months to resolve the issue, for those with access to the Council of Shadows there are public threads with both staff and Leaders pleading and reasoning to resolve the emerging conflict. Eventually we just gave in to the realization we were going in circles and the problem was growing.

What I think the GW should do is:
- focus on leaders who are mature, are able to look at themselves from a distance and know how to keep their ego at bay, and such people should lead the other members who don't care for leadership or simply have personality issues.


That's how we formed the Council. We searched back through public and council posts, threads (and replies to Mod PMs when applicable) to establish trends of posting. We restricted ourselves to active Leaders on the site to make it faster, the result was the 6 names on the list. Now that it's formed that have the ability to refine their recruitment techniques and even bring in non-Leaders if they wish. Our intention is for the "Community" half to outnumber staff eventually, but you can understand why recruitment has to be a slow and careful process.

- try to create a more user friendly atmosphere: no trolling, no hate speeches, no rage-venting on the forums. All of this should end with warnings and bans and should be stopped - and not SUPPORTED - by faction leaders.


We can strive towards it but we'll never reach it. Humans are imperfect creatures full of self-bias and capable of spite. The best we can do is come up with a fair system for handling things. Overtime the system we have gets better and better, everytime it stumbles it gets improved. With the addition of the IC as an oversight committee we now have an objective jury pool so to speak.

Just a personal opinion. Sorry for any grammar/spelling mistakes, but English is not my main language.


Never apologise for that, learning other languages is hard. Also you have the coolest accent on GWRS

And on a final note to Lothair, I do sort of worry about replacing our community. We came together as 40k and video game nerds, and there was limited places to go, so we all ended up here. That player base is shrinking, less and less of us playing that game. And as we move to other games, we don't have the same small player base. Halo is huge, there are halo forums way bigger and more established than this site, there will be more options for people to go besides here.


There are warhammer forums more massive than us as well. Halo will not be an easy recruitment avenue for those trying it but I wish them all the best for it. Space Marine is also not a viable recruitment avenue because it's stagnating so you're right it produces a problem.

The problem with banning anyone (and not just a Leader) is you run the risk of people going with them. If you let them slide out of fear of retaining others, you promote anarchy and it becomes harder and harder to deal with future issues. I believe any quote about "a fine line" would fit nicely here.

You can prune a tree too much and kill it.


The swing to that statement is that if you don't prune it can grow weak, stunted and unattractive.

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#19 Brother White

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 10:14 PM

Away from the bashing on previous threads and please stick to the topic. I'm sure that moderating with an iron fist can be accommodated.


Lol like they haven't been doing, I got warned for arguing with one of my own members.


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#20 Dark War Paladin

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 12:24 AM

this post does u great credit Batman-yes many mods and adims abused ther control as of late more so than in the past and as i saw all whom wer involved i also saw who wasent.its apperant to some of us that GW is dyin-u have ppl whom recruit for this site and jus as many that warn ppl off and wit recent events the latter has swelled in numbers.i will tell all those who r in power here and abuse it wat i told a memember who left us-disloyalty has a price,now pay it in full.now plz giv me my warnin.
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