15 replies to this topic

[NightWolf889]

Recently during the random games Mongo has set up (thank you for them btw, I'm just sorry I can't make half of them due to already being committed to a game), games among the Dark Angels for practice, and more recently the match with the Crimson Fists (great fight, also), I started noticing something about no perk games that added to some of my frustration. Specifically this is during Seize Ground games (Annihilation and Cap Flag games are still fine with no perks). Keep in mind also that this is all purely opinion on my part and has no bearing on the Dark Angels as a whole.

It was mentioned in Envelope's post about the Rapid Deploy bug thread about not using teleport homers on the seize points during a no perk seize ground match, and after sizing up all my experiences with it I think it might be best to adopt that as the more standard rule (open to alteration of course as the chapters desire for their matches).

I was originally going to suggest this to Dern to request during our next match should we do a no-perk game, but I thought it better to post it here for all to see to get some feedback and hopefully either understanding of my perspective or offering me a different view on it.

No-perk games have, by their definition, been a game of simple skill, coordination with your team, and reliance on the standard weapon in your hand without having that ace in the hole we're used to (In my case a pocket melta or Larramen's to pick myself back up). The game of Seize Ground seems built around HAVING perks available, and it is for one reason alone, the teleport homers on the seize points.

It does not matter if one is using the Rapid Deploy bug or not, the points not only act as a generator to move your team's score closer to victory, but also as a way to determine where the lines of battle are drawn. With the points having Homers on them, you are essentially making the point closest to the enemy spawn your deployment zone rather than moving from your starting zone to the front lines, giving the enemy a delay that could cause a loss of a point. It makes organized defense of the points all the more crucial.

In a perk game, this is not as big of an issue. Say for example I am capturing point B on Waste Management. You all know that area, it is a very enclosed space open to AoE attacks and assault marines. In a perked game I'd typically take my primary weapon and a backup melta gun for that area to counteract any situation too much for my primary alone to handle. If I have 3 people spawning on that point to stop me, I have a chance to fight them, or at least make a dent for my allies to exploit by quickly taking out my secondary and firing. Alternatively, I could also use a MC Grenade to weaken the newly spawned enemy up for my primary weapon attack rather than take a melta. In short, perks help negate, or level the advantage of having a forward spawn point. You have a lot more options for the individual player to take initiative.

Now in a no-perk game this all goes to hell. I'm on the point capturing it when three defenders spawn in, all I have is one normal grenade and my primary with no perk. Teammates try to cover me but I am ultimately overwhelmed and killed within seconds of the spawn and the capture bar is reset. This is the primary issue I ran into during our no perk seize ground games. A no perk game makes taking a point a very daunting task and, quite frankly, left me feeling a bit helpless as a player.

Keep in mind again that I am not trying to say the game type is a bad thing. If possible I'd like to get a game together with another Chapter and just try a no perk match where spawning on the points is forbidden and get feedback from both teams as to the pros and cons to see if it should become a more common thing.

I'd say the type of fighting I like the most is best shown by an example. During our match with the Crimson Fists, Opeth of Epica and I managed to secure B on Shattered Bridge. We were alone and most likely about to be attacked, but none of our guys spawned on the point itself, they spawned back at the point and ran to reinforce us as we called for help. We were ultimately overwhelmed and B was retaken before they got there (They were intercepted and pinned down by some very well coordinated sniper fire), but those types of holdout options where your reinforcements CAN be cut off presents a feeling during the fighting that I love. It makes those desperate grabs for a point all the more epic, knowing you have as much chance as fighting alone as getting the help you need.

[JC 042]

I NEVER used spawn points or homers when I played, then again I am a die hard Raptor, even jumping across the battlefield gives you an impossible amount of advantages, like ambushing those snipers you refered to, I personaly love the feel of hunting enemies, for a person flying across the map I was amazingly stealthy, I hated spawning into the thick of things, I move into combat where I have the advantage. Using spawn points half the time guarantees you to get spawn killed before you barely let off a grenade.

[Optic20]

I NEVER used spawn points or homers when I played, then again I am a die hard Raptor, even jumping across the battlefield gives you an impossible amount of advantages, like ambushing those snipers you refered to, I personaly love the feel of hunting enemies, for a person flying across the map I was amazingly stealthy, I hated spawning into the thick of things, I move into combat where I have the advantage. Using spawn points half the time guarantees you to get spawn killed before you barely let off a grenade.

thats alll that ever happens to me...i dont use em at all.

[Gerhart]

No perks alon sieze ground requires true team work. You described the encounter on shattered bridge. We used a lot of chatter to send guys to different spots to retake it. Real team communication, NOT relying on one or two really skilled players with meltas and rapid deploy.

Before no perks I was almost driven away from this game as EVERY game was the same. Assaults, and tacticals with Rapid deploy, VL, and meltas. eVERY damn game was the same, and I'd you refused to play that way you got your teeth kicked in.

No perks REQUIRES you to use team work and think about where players are going rather then relying in the mindless rapid spawn and Melta combo.

I miss the days of MP games with no perks. It seems ever since MW perks have been slammed into games. Before that most games you relied on skill and teamwork. Rapid Melta/VL requires FAR less communication and actual deployment tactics, because of shit doesn't work I just respawn in seconds before the point can be taken.

Longer respawn time makes you work as a team more. We didn't just keep rushing in we waited a second or two and grouped up and coordinated.


I welcome thoughts on game play discussion, but when your argument is "well that sucks I can't rapid in with my VL and Melta.". Your not going to get any sympathy from me.

[TheGodDernMan]

Lol take note much nightwolf?

[NightWolf889]

I welcome thoughts on game play discussion, but when your argument is "well that sucks I can't rapid in with my VL and Melta.". Your not going to get any sympathy from me.

On principle I don't use Rapid Deployment on Seize Ground. What I said was having a pocket melta helped me deal with rapid deploy people easier when I moved to take a point. My argument isn't that I am at a disadvantage myself it was that points seem nigh on impregnable in a no perk game when people can basically reinforce each other directly at the front line rather than waiting for their reinforcements to make their way to them from the spawn. It didn't just affect me it affected the whole team. Apologies if I didn't make that clear enough in the OP.

For example in the Hab Center game at D we would finally punch through to get to the point, only to find that the people we had just killed spawn back in with storm bolters and clear us off the point while we're still weak from the previous push.

[Gerhart]

I fail to see your point. Are you implying we used the rapid deploy glitch? I can assure you we didn't, don't, haven't, and never will. Even in games with perks we don't do this.

If you are implying that we did this then I'm slightly offended. If your not implying this then please illuminate me to your point.

We did respawn at points but no one used the glitch. We coordinated through chatter, I would rather not give every detail of our no perks strategy.

[NightWolf889]

I fail to see your point. Are you implying we used the rapid deploy glitch? I can assure you we didn't, don't, haven't, and never will. Even in games with perks we don't do this.

If you are implying that we did this then I'm slightly offended. If your not implying this then please illuminate me to your point.

We did respawn at points but no one used the glitch. We coordinated through chatter, I would rather not give every detail of our no perks strategy.

If people need to know one thing about me it's that I never imply unless I'm doing it for humor purposes, if I think something is wrong I'll flat out say it. No I didn't think you guys were using the glitch, I was watching for it, yes, but I never killed someone then immediately saw them reappear on the point and in hindsight I was satisfied with the matches we played.

My point is it seems once a team who is communicating has a point it's flat out impossible to wrest it away from them without using some sort of trick. In our case, luring your guys to A, or back to your spawn and then rushing D with everything we had. Worked for awhile but still lost that game fair and square.

I'm not basing this solely on our game, I'm also basing this off of other no perk games with other people, including our own members. To me the impregnable points seem to be a repeating pattern and I thought it was worth bringing up for discussion, I'm sorry if it seemed like I was implying anything against your Chapter, that was not my intention, I just used examples from our game because it was the most recent.

[Opeth Of Epica]

I agree with Gerhart on this one. If your on a team of eight, then yes you NEED to work together. Your bound to feel small in a 16 man game with no perks but I think that if everyone is working together, then no one will feel small. Nightwolf you are used to being able to take out multiple people out on SM but at the end of the day if you think your going to do that in a no perk game, you will be overwelmed (as you described on Shattered Bridge).

Also am I the only one who doesn't treat perk games differently to no-perk games. I always play lone wolf with the Dark Angels, contrbuting by killing as many as I can on my own so my team can get the objective, flanking the enemy or defending a point 'cause I trust myself enough that I will make the right decisions. Despite this, if i'm ordered to work with someone, I will follow my duty and if there a place I need to get to which I highly guarded, i'll ask for a ecort. If I ever doubt i'm going to kill them 'cause I have no perks, I just say they have the same disadvantage. Weather if i'm with just a Stalker or using a Bolter with KB and a melta, for me my objective stays the same therefore I will fight my way, perks or no perks.

[Optic20]

if i'm ordered to work with someone, I will follow my duty and if there a place I need to get to which I highly guarded, i'll ask for a ecort. If I ever doubt i'm going to kill them 'cause I have no perks, I just say they have the same disadvantage. Weather if i'm with just a Stalker or using a Bolter with KB and a melta, for me my objective stays the same therefore I will fight my way, perks or no perks.

well said brother.

[Gerhart]

My point is it seems once a team who is communicating has a point it's flat out impossible to wrest it away from them without using some sort of trick. In our case, luring your guys to A, or back to your spawn and then rushing D with everything we had. Worked for awhile but still lost that game fair and square.

Thank you for clarification, you know how typed words can appear I'm sure. As for the tactic y'all were doing it worked well until we changed our. You left A open, we called it which pulled some of your guys there slowly which were picked off since they rushed not cover each other.

Then while they were either runnin or respawning we re-took D. And pulled off a close win. You almost had us it took a lot of communication to sneak out that win at the wire.

The best no perk team I have seen is the DW, they kicked our teeth in last time we played them. There communication and team work is stellar and what I hope our guys aspire to.

[Opeth Of Epica]

The best no perk team I have seen is the DW, they kicked our teeth in last time we played them. There communication and team work is stellar and what I hope our guys aspire to.

In my honest opinion, our communication could be far better.

[NightWolf889]

Perhaps I'm letting the past week get to me and I'm blowing the issue up too much >_<

I see your points, I won't press this anymore.

The best no perk team I have seen is the DW, they kicked our teeth in last time we played them. There communication and team work is stellar and what I hope our guys aspire to.

In my honest opinion, our communication could be far better.

Yeah this is definitely something we'll need to work on. Maybe also set up some weapon combos among our members and work at coordinating with each other to cover our weaknesses. In my case with the V-Launcher I was running out of fusion charges faster than I could replenish them.

[Gerhart]

Ours as well, as I told my guys it was by far are best communicated game. I was really pleased with the chatter we has going and targets being called out.

[Opeth Of Epica]

Ours as well, as I told my guys it was by far are best communicated game. I was really pleased with the chatter we has going and targets being called out.

Everyone brings their A game for a Chapter match. That's why the comms were better

[Optic20]

Perhaps I'm letting the past week get to me and I'm blowing the issue up too much >_<

I see your points, I won't press this anymore.

In my honest opinion, our communication could be far better.

Yeah this is definitely something we'll need to work on. Maybe also set up some weapon combos among our members and work at coordinating with each other to cover our weaknesses. In my case with the V-Launcher I was running out of fusion charges faster than I could replenish them.

Go check out my thread in the Inner Circle forum and read my input on the matter.