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Hey Guys. Ukraine


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#1 Jean_Havok

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 11:03 PM

So... With what has been going on between Russia and Ukraine NATO is getting involved and it seems like America might get heavily involved soon. So when I'm done with this shit training I know where I'm going. That's right Georgia. You expect Rangers to deploy, hell no we kill and come home not deploy. (Unless I am my usual self and decide to get attached to a unit getting deployed there to fight with Russia.)

So depending on my Commander and Chief, depends on what we do with Russia and the Ukraine...

Edited by Jean_Havok, 17 April 2014 - 11:04 PM.

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#2 Draco Ny'ade

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 11:22 PM

enjoy World War Three :P


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#3 An_A10_Pilot

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 11:26 PM

It is getting quite intense. On tuesday pro-russian forces attacked a Ukrainian air force base. The Base responded by sending out an SU27 to buzz them to get them to disperse. Due to poor maintenance though, the air craft lost power and crashed into the the attackers. To which I say, fuck em. If you support Putin and are in Ukraine I give 0 fucks if you die. I really dont understand why Ukraine doesnt declare all these plain clothes Russian Soldiers spys and then go on the offensive. 

 

 

These attacks and everything else falls under the purviews of spys and sabotuers. Unfortunately Ukaine doesnt really have their shit together. To which I wish you the best of luck Jean. Kill those lying bastards and try to come back in one piece. 


Edited by An_A10_Pilot, 17 April 2014 - 11:26 PM.

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#4 dx144

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 12:39 AM

Obama will not commit troops to fighting a war with Ukrainians or Russia unless Russia does something that directly affects the US.

 

He is trying to be the leader who gets the troops out of warzone and if he does send troops near Russia all that will happen is it will destabilise the situation which is what Russia is accused of doing constantly.

 

Although at Geneva they did come to some agreement. Apparently all the protesters must give back the illegally taken buildings. I find that funny because technically the new Ukrainian Government took over from a legally elected government.

 

To be honest the Eastern Ukrainian people who are supportive of Russia are usually native Russian speakers who are seeing the new pro-European government as breaking all its ties with Russia. Ukraine does need a massive helping hand as the debts they have to Russia aren't being paid. I think they are 2 billion dollars in debt to them for their gas and Russia I think is cutting off their gas supply because they are refusing to pay. That being said not all of the Eastern Ukrainians want to support Russia as some support the current Ukrainian Government.

 

Most of the Eastern Ukrainians support Russia more because a lot of them are descendants of Ethnic Russians. Also Crimea had a referendum and they on the whole want to join the Russian Federation. 

 

A lot of Eastern Ukrainians probably have old USSR uniforms that they could easily put a Russian Federation Emblem over the USSR Emblem and lots of rifles left over from the USSR so thinking that Russia has some super secret evil plot for World Domination is fucking retarded. The Russians and Ukrainians are people just like me and you guys. They are just looking out for their own interests, are we any different in our dealings with the world?

 

Russia is feeling threatened more because Ukraine is a buffer zone. Separating the West and East (More Nato and Russia so they aren't in conflicting zones.) This is because if Ukraine is siding more with the West it makes Russia fearful that the West is pressing onward towards Russia.

 

 

Putin is just like another other world leader needing to show strength just like others if he wants to make sure Russia still has a strong presence in world relations. If he backs down then he loses his strength to the other world leaders. Although apparently the Western world doesn't like it when a country uses its military force on its own people yet allows Ukraine. If anything that shows the Western world's hypocrisy.

 

Just leave Ukraine alone and they will work out their own problems. To be honest if people want to rule themselves then they should be allowed and from the amount of people in Eastern Ukraine wanting to be ruled differently to how they are currently being ruled they are entitled to that right of ruling themselves.

 

If Scotland votes yes on leaving the UK do we disregard it and say "Nope you're staying with us or we're going to kill you." No because the Scottish have just as much right to decide where they go and how they rule themselves or stay within a Union. I'm not going to go into my reason on that because its not a thread to discuss Scottish independence from the UK.

 


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#5 JC 042

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 10:39 AM

It's gonna be like Georgia, the rest of the world does fuck all while Russia rebuilds the Soviet Union.

 

That said I don't support any ideas of going to war with Russia, I'd much prefer none of this happening at all...


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#6 ebonybrotherhood

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 01:48 PM

Its actually scary on how goddamn tense this is. On how damn close this is to a huge war. The fact it harkens back to the nazi's Lebensraum and of course the USSR's buffer zone is bringing a bad sense of deja vu. Like everyone else, I really hope Russia pulls out of this stupid turn of events. 


Edited by ebonybrotherhood, 18 April 2014 - 01:49 PM.

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#7 dx144

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 03:20 PM

Well the Eastern Ukrainians are also afraid because parts of the new Ukrainian government who helped overthrow the last president are Neo-Nazis. A lot of people are concerned about this.

 

Russia just wants to make sure its borders are secure. Also Crimea has also been kind of treated as a part of Russia to an extent because Ukraine allowed Russia to use the Naval Base which is what Russia was mainly interested in. Its why they are supportive of Assad in Syria. They need their naval bases around the world. If the UK started to lose strength in the Commonwealth we would start to act to ensure we still hold ties into the Commonwealth.

 

Although according to the UN charter if the Eastern Ukrainians do manage to stand their ground and claim they own the land they can under the UN law claim the land. Its what the Falkland Islanders have done to get UN support to hold their ground and not give it to the Argentines.

 

Russia will not throw the first stone. By that I mean do a military invasion unless they are seriously provoked. Most people might think Russia doesn't care and will charge at a moments notice. Putin was in the KGB and grew up in the Soviet Union he knows how bad things can get. He is just making sure he can get the best deal he can. Which is like what Ukraine was going for. Putin offered them a full deal while the EU gave them basically a second class citizen allowance into the EU rather than full perks which everyone else has.

 

Putin has said though that he liked the USSR and would like to see it again. I like the British Empire and would love to see it again but that doesn't mean I want to go around the world and imposing my rule of other parts of the world. Dead empires should be where they fell in history. Trying to bring them back will do nothing but make them fall again.

 

Is kind of funny that major countries in the EU have anti-EU parties. Most people see it as those people wanting nothing to do with the Europe. They are wrong they just want to deal with Europe on their own terms and have a different relationship with Europe.

 

Obama won't let himself be known as the President who sent American into the biggest war since World War II, David Cameron will not send the UK into it as with Scotland's independence coming up and if he says he's sending so many of our troops into a conflict we aren't really involved in would not go down well with the public.

 

In World War I the British went in because of a treaty they had ages ago with Belgium, it said if anyone entered Belgium Britain would defend them. Now if the public was told the biggest war we've ever been in was because we had to protect Belgium would have been little solace to mothers, fathers, daughters and sons who had their families killed off.

 

I think a lot of people think Russia has been stagnant in their military, so they are still all walking around with Ak-47s and using heavily outdated tanks that have been sold to many Middle Eastern countries. The Russians have develop just as every country has. 

 

Although the Ukrainian government hung a picture of their "liberator" who is thought of to be a collaborator with the Nazis. We should all just take a step back and give time to see what should be done rather than picking up rifles and shooting everything.

 

Russia is just preparing to defend itself. With people in the world saying they aren't allowed at the "Big-Boy" table with the other EU leaders in discussing events and kicking them out of the G-8 summit was just stupid. Let's decide how the world is going to be by removing one the world economic power houses. Good thinking idiots...


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#8 CruciasNZ

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 07:56 PM

When the previous president backfliped on a popular policy there were protests, he then had those protesters shot by snipers; this led to the revolution, current interim government and forthcoming general elections. Where this neo-Nazi thing came from is Russian propaganda. I would point out that the 'Jews' for Ukrainian and Russian neo-nazis are the Tartars; and the Tartars have stated that they want to remain Ukrainian.

 

Russia also invaded Ukraine illegally which constitutes an act of war. Removing all insignia from your special forces does not disavow you of responsibility for their actions. The Crimean referendum is not internationally recognised because it was done under the barrels of Russian weapons. Russia has also illegally seized Ukrainian state assets such as their ships, airplanes, and state infrastructure in Crimea. Russia is also the side that has killed people, no Ukrainian troops have fired weapons but some Russian soldiers have shot Ukrainian troops who would not abandon their posts in what is now occupied territory.

 

Russia is currently repeating the exact same tactic (if it ain't broke don't fix it right?) in eastern Ukraine. 'Civilians' in modern paramilitary gear without insignia are generating unrest and revolt.

 

There is a large group of Ukrainians who work for Yard Services (cooking, cleaning, vehicle workshop, quartermasters) at my work and most of them are from Crimea, the rest from some place I cannot remember in Eastern Ukraine; they all believe Russia has invaded their country.

 

Obama does not want to initiate a war against anyone, but eventually the US will be dragged into this war, for that is what it is. Countries who bled to stop Hitler cannot morally or politically stand by and allow Hitler 2.0 to walk the same path.


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#9 dx144

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 09:29 PM

Putin as hitler 2.0 what?

Putin was asked Crimea to assist that is why he crossed the border. If it was a proper invasion he wouldn't stop at Crimea, Putin would have rolled over the Ukrainian military.

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#10 CruciasNZ

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 10:24 PM

Hitler pulled the same stunt in part of Chekoslovakia. He generated civil unrest then moved in to protect the rights of ethic Germans

 

Google it, quite interesting how history is repeating


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#11 Jean_Havok

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 10:37 PM

History is repeating and America being the "World's Police" and maybe to stabilize our economy will probably go. Plus this will stop the government from laying off troops and shit, but with what is going on, it has people in America scared of what may happen and even parts of our military. Honestly I think we should go to back up the treaty one of our presidents had with them that if they gave up their nukes we would defend them.

My outlook SHIT IS GETTING REAL QUICK.
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#12 dx144

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 11:21 PM

Wait wait wait. You can't say because someon does one thing in common with Hitler they are hitler. I'm human and so is hitler therefore I am Hitler.

Technically Hitler was in the right there for defending the Germans there but it in no right gives allowance for the Holocaust or any other atrocities cause by the National Socialists.

I support any country that is defending its people. Foreign or domestic.

Comparing anyone to Hitler is possibly one of the biggest insults you can use. I don't agree with Russia claiming that the Ukranian government is ruled by Nazis. The only deference is yhere are elements of neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian government.

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#13 Jean_Havok

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 02:09 AM

Wrong. Hitler was a saint compared to Joseph Stalin. True Fact.

And it is the whole Russia wants power turn cold war on and chance of a real war this time.
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#14 dx144

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 02:56 AM

Real war? Do you think that the West in the 60s and 80s were just pretending to be scared? West Berlin lived in fear of Soviets rushing through the Berlin Wall and pressing far into Europe and then the main way to win was "Nuke 'em" and most Atomic weapons were developed for bombers. Russia and America knew their planes would get shot down long before they reached their targets which is why many nuclear weapons have such a radius on them so even if a plane was shot down miles away they would still be able to hit their targets. The USSR was also in fear of a Western preemptive strike just like the West feared a Soviet preemptive strike. 

 

 

 

 

Who said Stalin was better than Hitler? I know Stalin isn't a nice guy and was possibly worse as he killed millions on mere whims, he killed off lots of his high command and then one of the reasons the Ukrainians dislike Russia is because millions of Ukrainians were killed by Stalin. It's not about saying Hitler was bad but Stalin was worse, its that both were bad. I can't justify Hitler because Stalin was worse and no one else can. They were both bad and both deserve to be known as killers.

 

 

And how can you know all of Russia wants the Cold War back? I could say there are lots of people who want them to restart the Cold War but I am sure Putin and many of the Russians don't want another Cold War. It would be like me saying all people in America want to control world's oil. We shouldn't say things like that because its just stupid to say things like that.

 

And no Hitler was in no way a saint in any form. Unless commissioning the mass murder of the Jewish people is what gets you canonized as a saint and killing all those who had an opposing ideology. Then I think even more people's view of organised religion is going to be against it.

 

The only real things you can say about Hitler positively is that he is one hell of a charismatic man as he was known to drive crowds into a frenzy and that he become one of the worst dictators in history to be voted in democratically. He could turn any situation into something to drive the passions of the crowd he spoke to.

 

Anyway should we judge a people by how they act now not how they acted before. The German people were once under the control of the Nazis but we don't think of them all as Nazis or Nazi supporters. Why do we treat the Russians as Communists even though Communism fell years ago. I'm not saying that no one in Russia supports Communism but since they haven't got a Communist government any more then we should treat them as anyone else with free speech, thought and choice.


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#15 CruciasNZ

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 05:12 AM

I guess when they stop acting as Soviet Russia did then we'll treat them differently. Let's not get diverted, the issue in the world right now is Russia has all but declared was on a country just because they didn't get their way via their corrupt puppet.

 

I think they just just economically isolate Russia until they commit to behaving. Completely stop trade, (which includes internet access to things like World of Warcraft). You cannot let a bully get away with shit like this or they'll just keep doing it as they are currently moving on the rest of Eastern Ukraine, and stopping all trade is better than a shooting war. Russia doesn't produce enough technology, medicine or food to go it alone whereas the ONLY thing Europe needs from Russia is gas, which they can source elsewhere


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#16 dx144

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 05:48 AM

Well cutting off trade isn't going to happen. Germany I think receives 40% of their gas from Russia. There is no way German will cut off that unless there is someone else willing to supply Germany and I guess other countries who depend on Russia. 

 

I will admit that a situation where shooting doesn't happen is more preferable. 

 

And the President of Ukraine wasn't a puppet. He just saw the Russian deal more appeasing than the Europe Union offer. Nothing more.

 

 

Although the Eastern Ukraine protesters have a point. The current government wasn't voted in and could be seen as an illegal government and that is why the Eastern Ukraine protesters are refusing to stop their protest even though in Geneva a decision was made.

 

But this would also need to make China stop supporting Russia and they have been close allies and China produces more than enough and its possible that Russia could just divert the gas so they are still making profits. Taking drastic actions such as stopping trade is a very touch part as if they did that then Russia may see that they have to take what they need or they could stop.

 

Just give Putin Crimea and if he continues then put the boot down. And before we start to say we tried to appease Hitler just before World World II this would be different as we wouldn't be giving in time and time again. Give him one chance to stop then if he doesn't stop and keeps demanding more then we should oppose him in any way we can.

 

This situation will require a compromise and we can't expect Russia to give up everything or Ukraine to give up everything. Both will have to give a little and both will have to lose something. Say Russia has to pay some reparations to Ukraine and another referendum happens in Crimea that is under the watch of a non-biased party to ensure Crimea decides if they should be part of Ukraine, Russia or independent. Wouldn't that be more a solution than we can shoot them or not trade with them?

 

But the problem with the Geneva meeting is that Ukraine will only send the current government. The protesters in Eastern Ukraine have already started to set up their own government and unless they have representatives there they will not allow any decision made at Geneva or any other location unless they are also heard. I highly doubt the rest of Ukraine will allow that as it will give a sense of legitimacy to Eastern Ukraine's new government. 

 

Everyone just needs to calm the fuck down, get people from all the people involved and talk this thing out and then go back to life without shit happening. We can't just have certain people go to it while excluding some others as that is going to accomplish very little and antagonize the ones who aren't invited. 

 

Russia is in the right as they are defending the people of Crimea who have asked for their support, Ukraine is in the right as their sovereignty has been violated and we're all bystanders with our opinions on what is happening. Because of the show that putting sanctions on Russia has had very little to no affect on the Russian foreign policy with Ukraine it might be a sign that isn't the way to make them stop but we need to do it another way rather than just excluding them from every major world event. 

 

If we keep shunning Russia we might as well reconstruct the Berlin Wall in Eastern Ukraine and have nice patrols to make sure no one escapes and that no spies come across the border. Who knows Russia could reform the Iron Curtain but improve it to make the Steel Curtain...

 

But from what has been shown by the media Crimea is very supportive of Russia and wants them and it isn't really an occupation of Crimea. I believe Russia when they say they aren't going to move any more military troops into Ukraine. Some might call me naive or stupid but trust is essential to making the world work. If we distrust Russia all the time then they will distrust us and that is no way for world powers to have a relationship. Of course if Russia breaks this trust then we have reason to distrust them.


Edited by dx144, 19 April 2014 - 05:50 AM.

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#17 An_A10_Pilot

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 02:51 PM

Dx. oh Dx. Why are you listening to the Russian propoganda machine? 

 

First things first. How about some cold hard facts. For the so called "Referendum" armed troops were at voting areas and inside the voting building. Second, the reported statistics are that 124% of the population voted for Russia. Dead people, babies, and Imaginary people all voted for Russia. The voting process was done directly under the barrel of a gun. That is not democracy. It is disguised dictatorship. I guarantee that anybody whom voted against it, they used their name, dragged them away and shot them. I have family in Crimea as well as Ukraine. I have gotten letters and facebook messages from my family in Ukraine, but my Uncle in Crimea? Not a word. I dont know if he is dead, missing, or surviving somewhere. I know that he would be extremely opposed to Russian oppression so the consensus in my family is that he is dead. I've tried to restrain from imputing into this topic for I am emotionally involved in this. 

So your justification of Putin not being Hitler 2.0? of defending Russia? Bullshit. Vladamir Putin is a power hungry mongrel. He is using his paramilitary forces to wrest control of Ukraine in a way that people have to argue if it is a direct use of force. Every singe person in eastern Ukraine that is wearing a military uniform w/o insignia is a spy and should be shot on sight. Russia is trying to control Ukraine and create a reliant sphere of influence.


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#18 Jean_Havok

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 03:02 PM

All I know is me and my buddies here might have to go in deploy there. So shit is nerve racking and I wanna know if Russia is testing its limits or trying to start another cold war with America with its encounters again or if this will just turn into a hot war.
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#19 dx144

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 04:02 PM

So only Russia has propaganda while the West tells the truth and nothing but the truth?

 

When the referendum was going on the Russian forces going over there were to protect the people after they had asked for Putin's support. If Putin was asked and declined to help them I would see him as a villain. If someone asks for help you help them not leave them and ignore their pleas.

 

Do you have a list of the people who have voted in the Crimean referendum and have you checked everyone of the people who has voted in that referendum? 

 

Yes Russia still has forced labour camps that have been working hard since 1917.... Anyone with a slightly opposing view must be sent to one of them. I do not agree with Putin's anti-*CENSORED* stuff because because people have right to live how they want as long as it doesn't harm others. I'm not saying Russia is the epitome of Culture and Society, and that we should all follow their example of how to live.

 

And I forgot Russia has an entire military division that fights in the enemies clothing because yeah Russians do that shit. We have no hard evidence to support that the Eastern Ukrainian protesters are actually the hated Russia evil bastards in disguise. Perhaps we should brand all Russians as horrid evil people who seek to devour the world and then the rest of the Galaxy. Wouldn't surprise me if they are actually the army of the dead Ragnarok has foretold....

 

How is it oppression? The people of Crimea which has been shown on news channels like the BBC has shown crowds of Crimeans supportive and celebrating the Russians for coming to their aid. Perhaps the Russians are also bodysnatchers! They have replaced everyone in Crimea with Russians! Quickly we need salt water to kill them before they change everyone in the world with Russians!

 

And calling Putin "Hitler 2.0" is an insult to every Russian soldier who died protecting their land from the Nazi war machine. I guess all Vegetarians are also Hitler and people who don't drink are Hitler and then we can also call every failed painter Hitler! Where does it end? 

 

This is an act by Russia to ensure its defence. If the buffer zone that ensure Nato and Russia are a certain distance apart collapses then it will make Russia feel threatened. Perhaps the Russians want to destroy the world while they're at it and they get a giant laser on the moon which they will use to destroy all major cities...

 

I don't follow Russian propaganda I just like to listen to both sides of an argument rather than just hearing one side and I draw conclusions from what I hear and read. Now if Russia does turn out to be power hungry and not trying to defend themselves then I will hold up my hands and say I was wrong but as I am human and have free will and speech to make my own decision be they right or wrong, only time will tell.

 

You have an opposing view to mine which I can respect and I feel sorry for current involvement in the situation and hope the best for you and your family in this time of uncertainty.


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#20 Armoured Priest

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 05:16 PM

Alright, I don't know why there is a political thread on a gaming forum, especially one that is still such a hot button issue. Or why people who before said to diverge threads away from these sort of subjects decide to input instead of halting it all together.

I hope we call all agree at least that war is not declared on, world war 3 not spark, and that a quick solution can be achieved before more innocent lives are killed by any means by any side.

Locking these thread before it devolves any further then it has.


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